The Singer Swapp Standoff, Part 2: A Bomb to Raise the Dead

[00:00:04] What would be your reaction if a friend told you he had received a revelation instructing him to bomb a church building? Would you say, hey, that sounds like a great revelation? Or would you tell him he must have conversed with Beelzebub? Such was the dilemma I faced last January when Adam Swapp told me his reasons for dynamiting the LDS meeting house at Marion, Utah.

[00:00:28] That's how Ogden Kraut began his article for Sunstone Magazine in November 1988. In January of that year, he'd walked up a snowy lane in Marion, Utah, three times carrying milk and baby cereal, a letter from the governor, and a new telephone to a log cabin where six adults and nine children had barricaded themselves with rifles, handguns, sawed-off shotguns, and, officers believed, explosives.

[00:00:57] Dozens of county deputies, highway patrolmen, and federal agents had the farm surrounded. At three in the morning on January 16th, a bomb had gone off inside the Kamas Stake Center a mile down the road and lifted the roof off the walls. Tracks in the snow led straight to the cabin. The people inside had grievances against the Mormon Church, the state of Utah, and the United States government.

[00:01:23] Nine years earlier, officers had shot and killed a man at the end of that same lane. His name was John Singer. His widow, his children, and the son-in-law who built the bomb were inside that cabin, waiting for John Singer to rise from the dead. Hannah and Jess, we got away. Now we're unpacking what they won't say. Behind temple walls and cover-ups.

[00:01:53] We're quarantining your coffee cups. It's the post-Mormon post-mortem. Digging up what they won't forgotten. Trauma, truth, and crime, yeah, we're surviving. It's post-mormon post-mortem. Welcome to Post-Mormon post-mortem's Mormon true crime episode. Some cases are famous. Some were buried in old papers.

[00:02:21] All of them tell us something about the culture around the crime. I'm your host, Hannah. And I'm Jess. Now this is part two of our story on the Singer and Swab families in Marion, Utah. If you haven't heard part one, go back and start there. In part one, we told you about John Singer. He spent his childhood in Germany, came to Utah, and married Vicki Lemon in 1963. The Mormon church excommunicated them both in 1972.

[00:02:51] In 1973, John pulled his kids out of the South Summit schools, and for five years he fought the district and the courts over teaching them at home. In July 1978, he married a second wife, Shirley Black, who brought her children to the farm, and their father eventually won custody of those children. On January 18, 1979, officers on snowmobiles surrounded John at his mailbox. He was shot within minutes and dead by the afternoon.

[00:03:20] Within weeks, Vicki came to believe he would rise from the dead. Vicki sued over his death for more than $100 million. In 1982, a federal judge ruled for the officials and agencies that she had sued without a trial, and after 72 people had been deposed. The 10th Circuit upheld that ruling in 1984, and the Supreme Court refused to hear the case.

[00:03:46] So today, we will pick up with Adam Swapp, the young man who married into the family, and talk about what happened in Marion in January 1988. Here's who's who for this one. We've got Vicki Singer, who is John's widow. Her daughters are Charlotte and Heidi and Suzanne. Her daughter Suzanne married Adam's cousin, Roger Bates, and that is a different man from Deputy Bates in part one. Just to keep that clear.

[00:04:15] Her sons were Timothy, Joseph, Benjamin, and Israel. Jonathan Swapp is Adam's younger brother, and Raymond and Harriet Swapp are their parents. Jared Weller is still the neighbor at the bottom of the lane, and Alden Kraut is still the family's fundamentalist friend. So Adam Swapp grew up in Fairview, Utah.

[00:04:44] His cousin, as Hannah mentioned, Roger Bates, went on double dates with him and remembered him as a kid who didn't care much what was happening. He was good looking and got along with girls his age, and he stayed outside the popular crowd. He didn't try to please people, Charlotte said later. Which is one way of putting it. It for sure is. You weren't unpopular. You stayed outside the popular crowd. Mm-hmm.

[00:05:13] In junior high, a fundamentalist classmate quietly taught him the Adam-God doctrine, that Adam had been a man who became God, and that any man could. Adam started reading books the church didn't approve of. In 1978, when he was in high school, the Mormon church let black men hold the priesthood. It disgusted him, and he never went to church again. Some Mormon fundamentalists called that day Black Friday.

[00:05:41] After John's death, Adam saw 14-year-old Heidi on TV talking about how her father had kept her clean from the world, and he told himself, quote, I'm going to marry that girl, end quote. Adam had never met him, but he decided that John Singer was one of the few men who stood on truth. In September 1980, Adam married Heidi, and his cousin Roger married Suzanne.

[00:06:07] Heidi, born in 1964, was only 15 or 16. Vicki wanted a man around the place. Timothy had been doing a lot of his dad's work, but when he was 17, a tree fell on him in a logging accident, and he ended up paralyzed in a wheelchair. So Adam moved in. Later, he married Charlotte too. She was 15. Over the next few years, he had six children with Heidi and Charlotte.

[00:06:36] Money was tight after John died. Vicki had rights to a spring above her land, and water in the Kamas Valley is a big deal. In the dry summer of 1985, the Marion Waterworks dug a line that cut her spring down to a trickle. There was no water for a garden, a lawn, or trees, and barely enough to cook with. Vicki asked the water commissioners to put it back, and nothing happened.

[00:07:01] The fight dragged on into the summer of 1987 when Adam dug a trench to bring the water back himself. The trench ran right across Joe Dweller's Land. One hot morning in July, two of Jared's sons caught Adam on their property, and Heidi ran up from the house to find three of them shouting at each other. A few nights later, Heidi dreamed that she and Adam were standing in the lane and a black bull came at them.

[00:07:30] The bull turned into a man with knives on his fingers. She wrote in her journal that he was supposed to cut and kill her, but, quote, The whole family got caught up in that dream and spent a long time working out what it meant. They decided that the bull represented their enemies. Vicki wrote that, quote, The bull striking would be the cause of dad coming home, right in the nick of time.

[00:08:00] I had a dream a while back about John's being home, and I said to him, Oh, John, I want to hold you. God help me. It's been so long. End quote. She thought about what he'd do when he got back. He'd help her keep the boys in line. He'd tell off his brother Harold, who'd insulted her by saying she should get a job. She wrote, quote, My husband knows that I already have a job.

[00:08:25] He also knows the tremendous serious stand that is required of us at this time, and that we are in no position to go out among the Gentiles. End quote. John had dreamed of an iron gate falling from the sky between him and an angry crowd. Now, Heidi's dream had a bull instead, but the same father was standing between her and it.

[00:08:48] Vicki refused to incorporate John's academy under state law because she thought it might give the state an excuse to come against them. She stopped paying part of her property tax that went to the schools because the school board had a hand in killing her husband as she saw it. She got a notice that her home was being sold for back taxes. On May 25th, 1987, Adam wrote a letter naming 13 men and everyone involved at the Marion Waterworks as responsible for John's death. He demanded atonement.

[00:09:18] He called the church an evil church conspiring to drive the singers off their farm. He wrote to the county commissioners asking how this wicked government, after leaving Vicki, a widow, had the nerve to take her home. He said, quote, if you try to take away our land, you will have a fight on your hands and God will fight our battles. End quote. He wrote to the waterworks and the school board that the Lord would, quote, strike them down.

[00:09:47] I've been reading too much Book of Mormon. A little bit too much. On September 14th, 1987, he wrote to the church's general authorities, a long list of state education and political leaders. Quote, John Singer warned you people in the name of Jesus Christ to stop your actions against him. You cared not for these warnings. Now you will reap the whirlwind of destruction. The Lord has told me I should declare these things unto you for a wise purpose in him.

[00:10:15] I have also been told by my God that you men are past forgiveness and will be destroyed. End quote. Just imagine starting a sentence with, I've also been told by my God, and then say something like you're damned to hell. He was a lovely lad. He spray painted other people's property. He interfered with another neighbor's water claim. Like and subscribe. Your bishop doesn't need to know.

[00:10:43] On October 29th, 1987, the letters scared enough people that the sheriff's office sent three deputies up to the farm. Adam went out with his guns on and told them to stop or he would, quote, hand them their heads. End quote. In her journal, his mother-in-law, Vicky, wrote, Adam said he was surprised at what happened next. His hand went straight into the air with the gun and he fired a shot. Well, guess what, Jess?

[00:11:11] After that, there was a felony warrant out for him. I hope so. Adam later testified that he considered the felony warrant a license to kill because police had felony warrants on John Singer when they shot him. Adam dreamed that he was crouched behind some logs, shooting at the enemy when John stepped in front of him and told him to fight like a man. John took a hail of bullets in the back and Adam walked away without a scratch.

[00:11:36] Vicky wrote that since John had, quote, paid the price, they couldn't hurt Adam when he had to stand against them. End quote. Then Vicky dreamed Adam started talking to her with a German accent. And when she looked at him, he'd turned into John. Adam started wearing John's frontier clothes right down to the fringed buckskin jacket and he carried John's colt anytime he left the house. He went into the hills and fasted for three days. So cliche.

[00:12:03] And came back with a revelation that he and John were going to be prophets. Again, cliche. So cliche. Do something new for once. John would come back to gather the tribes of Israel and the Native Americans would be Adam's job. He said that he had some native blood. His parents said he didn't. His fast brought another revelation. Adam was supposed to take a third wife, Shirley Black's daughter.

[00:12:34] Just like John was supposed to have before he died. Heidi had made her peace with sharing Adam with her little sister. But Julie was an outsider and Heidi was miserable about this revelation for days. Vicky wrote that the bull dream had foretold this also. Quote, the bull meant death. But in this sense, death to her mortal ego self. Vicky wrote. Heidi finally told Adam to go ahead. Like it's his choice.

[00:13:03] Like he just gets to marry Shirley's daughter without her consent. Yeah. One morning in late November, he strapped on his guns. What a hottie. Put on his markus and boots and went a courting. Julie had lived on the singer farm as a kid. Back during John's standoff. She wanted to forget all of that and had no interest in the people up on the hill. Her brother said he'd rather see her dead than married to Adam Swamp. And he later drove up the singer's lane and yelled, You're going to get yourself killed.

[00:13:33] Vicky's mum, Marge Lemon, kept writing to her. Quote, you've been a good mother, she wrote. You sure have some good kids. But this thing you've got about John has got to end. Do you think that all people has to do is sit around thinking of revenge on you? You are the one that is dwelling on it. I do believe it's in your power to control whether Adam's life ends like John's. Don't make a martyr out of Adam, she wrote.

[00:14:00] On December 26, 1987, Adam wrote down a revelation that said, in part, Quote, Thus saith the Lord unto my servant Adam, Inasmuch as you have asked me to know my will concerning you and what I require at your hands, this generation is a most wicked generation. You've got to love that God's always like, So similar to the revelation that comes to Joseph.

[00:14:29] It's always like the same playbook, right? So similar. God went on to tell Adam, And I will make thee a fenced brazen wall, and great power will I give thee. And I will make the nations of the earth to fear thee greatly. Therefore I give unto you a commandment that you go out to battle against this church and government. I say unto you, Adam, stand and fight manfully with great courage in my spirit. Fear not your lives or your family's lives, for they are in my hands.

[00:14:57] Behold, I am with you till the end, even so. Amen. So, fear not your lives or your family's lives, for they are in my hands, was the promise of Adam's revelation. Thirty-three days later, Adam was shot through the wrist and chest, and Lieutenant Freddie Howes was dead.

[00:15:14] In the early hours of Saturday, January 16, 1988, Adam broke into the Kamas Stakes Center in Marion. He'd designed the bomb himself out of 87 sticks of dynamite and 50 pounds of prill, a fertilizer, and it weighed between 130 and 140 pounds. He set it in the cultural hall.

[00:15:40] The security lights at the church went out that night, and the family took that as a sign. At 3 a.m., the bomb went off. It blew a crater in the floor, lifted the roof off the walls, and did $1.5 million in damage. Adam said later that when it went off, it looked as if many evil spirits were rising above the chapel. He watched it from the Singer property with the rest of the household. That morning, he called KUTV and gave a statement.

[00:16:09] The Singer property was the last place where God had established a stronghold of the daughter of Zion, and they would not compromise. On his way out, Adam stuck a spear in the ground near the church. He'd engraved the message, quote, J.S., January 18, 1979, church, state, and nation will now be destroyed, end quote.

[00:16:33] And he had tied nine feathers to it, one for every year since John's death in 1979. Ogden Kraut had been planning to bring Sunday dinner up to the farm that weekend. He saw the bombing on the Saturday night news, and he said, quote, At first, I threw up my hands in despair and decided to have nothing to do with the situation. By morning, I resolved to do what I could to avoid a repeat of the John Singer tragedy, end quote.

[00:17:04] Now, the tracks in the snow ran from the spear straight to the Singer farm. Federal agents called the house twice to find out what the families needed and whether anyone was being held hostage. Adam told them he'd been expecting the call. He and Vicki quoted at length from the Old Testament and said God had revealed all of it to them. Police told them to surrender. They said no, and they said there'd be a battle if anybody set foot on the property.

[00:17:34] By Sunday, dozens of officers had gathered around the farm, including agents from the FBI and the ATF and the Utah Highway Patrol. Jared Weller's family at the end of the lane was moved out so that sharpshooters could use the house. Inside the cabin were six adults, Vicki, Adam, Heidi, Charlotte, Timothy, and Adam's younger brother, Jonathan.

[00:18:01] There were nine children, and six of them were Adams. All of them were under six years old. They listened to the police get set up on a scanner and were delighted at how much trouble they'd caused Jared. Adam started singing a hymn. Vicki ran John's flag of the kingdom of God up the pole. On Sunday, officers let Vicki's son-in-law, Roger Bates, go up to the house. He came back down and told reporters they weren't coming out.

[00:18:31] He said, quote, They are just waiting for John to come home, to be resurrected. Adam had had a revelation that John would rise from the dead to protect them the moment the police attacked, and that his return would bring down the corrupt government and churches and clear the way for the second coming.

[00:18:50] That day, circuit judge Maurice D. Jones signed warrants charging Adam and Vicki with aggravated arson, criminal mischief, and possession of an infernal device. The courts and the officers expected trouble on Monday, the anniversary of John's death. They kept quiet and patrolled the edges of the farm. The day came and went. The family marked it with a quiet ceremony in the house. Now, Bates went up again and he came back with the same answer.

[00:19:20] The family had nothing more to say, and they were waiting for the police to attack so that John could be resurrected. He said they were cheerful and unafraid because they believed God was watching over them. Now, some TV reporters had called Monday the day of the resurrection. Vicki wrote, irritated, quote, We haven't set a day. A day. End quote. No one ever said Monday. Oh, oh. No, it's when the police attack. Yeah, the police have to attack. It's on them. They decide.

[00:19:47] And then the minute the police attack, John gets resurrected. That's how this is going to go. That's, we're just waiting. It doesn't have to be Monday. It could be Monday. Just talk to the police. So these dozens of officers, all of them out front, had orders not to fire on the house, no matter what, because of the children inside.

[00:20:13] And storming the cabin was out too, since the family was well armed and stockpiling dynamite. The temperature dropped below zero every night, and officers had to rotate out every few hours. When officers put up a bank of spotlights on the 19th and turned them on, more than a dozen shots came from the farm and hit several lights. From sunset that night to sunrise on the 20th, the family fired more than 50 rounds from high-powered rifles.

[00:20:42] But officers didn't shoot back. On the 20th, police sharpshooters shot out equipment on a power pole and cut the power. That same day, a federal grand jury indicted Adam and Vicki on four counts, three for the bombing and one for shooting at the officers. Nobody at the farm would answer the phone, so a helicopter dropped the news in the yard and officers watched a man with a rifle walk out and pick it up. That's one way to get served.

[00:21:08] On Thursday, January 21st, at sunset, a light started flashing from the cabin. First, with the reflection of the setting sun and then with a lantern, it was Morse code. D-d-d-dot-dot-dot-dot-SOS. It said, cops not telling truth. That day, Governor Bangarta and the First Presidency both urged the officers to be patient. The first presidency weighed in on this.

[00:21:35] They said, quote, church buildings are vital, but lives are infinitely more important. Damaged church buildings can be repaired or rebuilt. Lost lives cannot. So Vicky did end up talking with the newspaper reporter, Doug Palmer, and she said, quote, we are not going to make peace with them. We will not surrender. We've gone beyond talk. We are going into battle. This is serious. I have talked my guts out for years. Talking is over with. We're going into battle.

[00:22:04] Yes, there will be death, killing. Nothing we can do but protect ourselves. The Lord means what he says, end quote. Adam eventually talked to Charles Gibbs, an editor at KUTV, and he said, quote, we are making a stand against this corruption and wickedness. Our liberties and our God-given rights have been trampled on long enough. The stand that we are making is greater than the stand of the signers of the Declaration of Independence.

[00:22:32] The Lord has given a commandment that we should stand and fight manfully, and we have been assured that the Lord will fight our battles. We will be victorious. These people will not believe their eyes, end quote. Adam and Jonathan walked around the property carrying rifles, and several agents said later that the brothers pointed the rifles at them. Not those well-bred young Mormon gentlemen.

[00:23:01] The pressure went on. At midnight on Friday, low-flying planes buzzed the cabin and circled the farm. An hour later, the spotlights went dark, and for half an hour, the only light came from flares. Just before the lights came back on, two trucks raced down a road near the house. At 3.45, they did it all again. Just before sunset, an army jeep with a floodlight pulled up and shined it through the windows of Vicky's house, and at least one shot came back at it.

[00:23:28] On Saturday, officers set up loudspeakers and blasted a high-pitched electronic whine at the cabin. At 4am, officers spent an hour riding snowmobiles up and down the trails near the house, loud enough to hear, more than a mile away. They cut the main water pipe. Officers were shot at again and again. They didn't fire back. They just continued their tactical manoeuvres. On Sunday morning, a light flashed from the cabin window. Quote, cops shot off water.

[00:23:58] Rot creek. End quote. And then someone held up a sign with the same words. An army helicopter buzzed the farm for half an hour so that observers could study the layout. Police cameras showed weapons ranging from handguns to .30 caliber rifles. By that point, about 70 shots had come from the farm. Officers were thinking about ordering a surrender over a public address system, worded with psychological

[00:24:25] advisors so that it wouldn't, quote, trigger some type of violent reaction from those inside. End quote. The FBI's negotiators couldn't explain why the family still wouldn't talk after nine days. What they didn't understand was John was going to be resurrected. They just needed. They were just waiting for that resurrection? This isn't a normal situation, right? The FBI negotiators who were working on the scene said, quote,

[00:24:51] The psychological people who are advising are a little baffled at the determination of those inside, and it's something that they have frankly not encountered here before. End quote. At 5.30 that evening, Raymond and Harriet Swapp came to the command post carrying yellow signs. One read, please let us visit our family. Sincerely, the parents of Adam and John Swapp. Another read, we love you, mom and dad. Another read, officers, please back off. Reduce the pressure.

[00:25:19] Have a little respect for the senior family. Have a little respect for these terrorists. These terrorists who blew up a church. Have a little respect for the bomb person who makes a 140-pound bomb. What is wrong with you people? The stake center. These parents are deserving of their, they are real pieces of work. They are really deserving of their own takedown. Yeah. Raymond wept through most of the statement he read to reporters. He said, quote,

[00:25:47] We were told that the people in charge were trying to avoid tension and a confrontation. The plan now seems to be the exact opposite. They seem to be baiting a confrontation. End quote. He asked the police to stop the spotlights, the flares, and the noise at night. He said, quote, If you deny a person sleep over an extended period of time, you can produce irrational behavior that can subvert moral or ethical codes.

[00:26:13] Over the past week, the boys in the cabin have proven they don't want to shoot anybody, even though they have had ample opportunity. No one has been harmed. End quote. He said the tactics had been developed by the Russian secret police and used against U.S. soldiers in Korea and Vietnam. He added, it is, in fact, the ultimate pressure technique. Bordero, the FBI agent in charge, answered, We're not dealing with a rational mind.

[00:26:42] Rational minds don't get revelations and blow up other people's places of worship. Adam Swapp is operating under the assumption that unless he has a violent confrontation with us, John Singer won't return. Officials were concerned that Harriet and Raymond would be taken hostage by the Swapps if they were allowed to go up to the house. No wonder the FBI negotiators were saying, we've never dealt with this before. Listen to what he just said. This is true. He just said.

[00:27:13] Adam Swapp is operating under the assumption that unless he has a violent confrontation with us, John Singer will not come back from the dead nine years ago. And the parents are like, lay off. You guys are being harsh. You're harshing things in there. Well, actually, it turns out inside the cabin, everyone was having a whale of a time. Everyone was fine. Charlotte was playing hymns and everybody was singing. Vicky wrote, quote,

[00:27:40] We cooked a nice dinner on the stove and also popped some after dinner popcorn. This is Psalm Stand, a little family against a whole army of lawmen. End quote. So I think they were doing okay. One Sunday afternoon, reporters lined up with their cameras in the church parking lot, watching through their lenses as kids flew paper airplanes in the yard. At night, the sirens shrieked and the kids wrapped pillows around their heads. Vicky wrote, quote,

[00:28:09] The terrible shrill sound penetrated my head so much that I got a deep headache and began getting dizzy. End quote. Turned out it was just a tooth infection back. No, not really. At about 2 a.m. on Monday, January 25th, three of the family came out and fired eight bullets into the speakers. Two hours later, they came back out, cut the wires, hauled the speakers into the house, put eight more bullets into them, and shouted obscenities at the police. Seems like they were working.

[00:28:39] Quick side note. Quick side note. Every court opinion article and record that we've used in this episode and the last, they are in our sources list in the receipts archive on Patreon. After nine days of this, Calvin Clegg, the FBI's special agent and spokesman, called Ogden Kraut. Clegg told him he had the respect of both the family and the police, and several people had suggested him. Kraut said, okay, I'll do it. I'll help intervene for you.

[00:29:08] He told Clegg that the bombing was so unlike the singers that he figured he had a 10% chance of even getting over the fence. A little before 4 p.m. on Monday, January 25th, Kraut and Clegg drove up to the bombed steak center, which the police were using as a command post. Kraut walked up the lane carrying milk and baby cereal. He walked right over the spot where John had been shot nine years earlier.

[00:29:35] Adam was standing about 50 yards away with a rifle, not saying anything. Kraut called out to him. He was standing to bring that sundae, and he climbed over the fence. Right then, a bunch of snowmobiles started moving on the hillside. Adam raised his rifle and looked around and then stared at Kraut like Kraut had been sent as a distraction. For a minute, Kraut wondered the same thing.

[00:30:04] It was the shift change, in fact. Yeah, great timing. He thought he'd been set up. On the way to the house, Kraut, who, by the way, deserves his own deep dive because I had to go down the rabbit hole on this fellow, and he is interesting. And it's not really a surprise to me that he would be a good in-between because I think this guy knows how to... He's quite a fundamentalist himself. He is, but he also knows how to walk a line. He knows how to... Yeah.

[00:30:31] ...when to shut up, which is something that John Singer and Adam Thwapp did not know how to do. Kraut said to Adam, what the hell is going on up here? The news media reported that you're married to Vicky. It's not true, Adam said. Adam told him about his revelation. John Singer was going to be resurrected, and the setting in order of the church, the state, and the nation was going to start right there on the farm. A confrontation with the law had to happen, and there had to be bloodshed, and all of it would fulfill the revelation.

[00:31:01] Adam said, yeah, he'd bombed the church, and he told Kraut about the security lights going out that night. Which they took as a sign. Like, God's go-ahead. Take anything you want, it's God's go-ahead. Vicky told Kraut, quote, everything we've done, we were commanded by the Lord to do, end quote. She told him that the setting in order would start there. Kraut said hello to the kids who were thrilled to have a visitor, and told Vicky gently that there'd already been a kind of spiritual resurrection.

[00:31:28] You know, if you think about it, with all the attention John's getting. See, I'm telling you, he knows how to kind of talk to his audience. Mm-hmm. Now, the police had told Kraut to be out by dark about 5.30. If he wasn't, they figured he'd been taken hostage or shot. Before he left, he took a picture of the family and told them it'd be a part of history. The police released the color photo the next day. Everybody in it was smiling.

[00:31:57] Adam showed him one of the sirens. It was full of bullet holes. He and Jonathan had pulled them down in the night and hauled them back to the house because they couldn't stand them anymore. Down at the command post, Kraut told the police the sirens weren't working. He said, quote, the family was not weakening and they were not hardened criminals, end quote. The sirens were turned off. Monday night, the FBI asked Kraut to take up a letter from Governor Norm Bangader.

[00:32:26] The governor wrote that he was worried about the children and asked Adam and Vicki to give themselves up. The phone line at the cabin had shorted out. So on Tuesday, Kraut walked up with the letter, a package of diapers, and new phone equipment so Adam could call out if he wanted to. He told them most letters cost a quarter to mail, but this one costs $1,500 because it arrived special delivery by helicopter from the governor.

[00:32:56] Now, Adam said he was done trusting politicians and courts and didn't want to answer. Kraut told him, quote, Adam, this is not just an ordinary letter from the governor. This is a means to explain to him and the whole state your reasons for what has happened here. What are you going to do? Act like Jonah and not deliver your message? The whole nation is like an audience. The curtain is about to go up. The lights are on and the music is playing.

[00:33:23] Now it's your turn, Adam, to come out on the stage. Are you going to refuse? You have here one golden opportunity and a lot of bad options. If you don't handle this right, you'll lose everything you have, including your cause. End quote. He offered to help write about it. Adam said he'd pray about it. Kraut told him, quote, well, then get a revelation to answer that letter and don't write it like a nut. You've already written letters they think sound that way. End quote.

[00:33:53] He told Adam and Vicky he felt God wanted him there to help and they both agreed. As well as a professional photographer, Kraut also had written about 75 books and most of them are available on his website. Adam had a rifle in his arms, a knife, a pistol in his belts and two belts of ammunition crossed over his chest. Kraut told him, Adam, your mission in life is not to create a war. And Adam said he didn't really want any bloodshed.

[00:34:21] Adam agreed to hook up the phone. Kraut told him that a rich man back east had offered up to $4 million for their defense if they came out without anybody getting hurt. He told them the officers he'd met at the command post were good men with integrity and experience who did not want anyone hurt. On Kraut's first day, an officer watching the monitors had seen the family riding snowmobiles around the farm. I've never been on a snowmobile, he said. Here I am crumped up in this trailer and they get to ride one outside.

[00:34:50] Kraut told him that Adam would probably give him a ride if Kraut asked. And Kraut did. Adam smiled and nodded. When Kraut told the officer, the officer said, then Adam can't be such a bad guy after all. Gee whiz. Everybody in this 90% Mormon community is all on each other side. On his way out on Tuesday, Kraut asked, hey, what about those nine feathers on the spear? And Adam told him they were for the nine years since Sean had died.

[00:35:18] Kraut's debriefing that night took three hours with law enforcement. In Salt Lake City, about 50 people were holding a vigil outside the governor's mansion, hoping for a peaceful end. On Wednesday morning, the FBI called Kraut at work. Adam had used the new phone to tell them he was working on a letter for the governor. A helicopter picked Kraut up and by 2 p.m. he was back at the church. He called Adam, who told him not to come up before 5 o'clock and said he didn't want help with the letter.

[00:35:47] He said, don't come before 5 because this thing is long and I'm still writing it. I've got a lot to say. At 5 o'clock, Adam and Vicki handed Kraut their answers in sealed envelopes. As they walked out of the house, Kraut turned to him and said, According to your revelations, it appears to me that you will have either a big miracle up here or you will have a catastrophe. Adam turned to him and said, that's right.

[00:36:21] The officials sat in a circle and read the letters page by page. Kraut said, quote, I'll never forget their expressions. I have seen happier faces at a funeral, end quote. Adam's letter ran seven pages. So we've pulled out the main parts for you. We haven't paraphrased anything. These are his own words. The full letter is available in its entirety on Patreon. Here's an excerpt of what he wrote. The date was January 27th, 1988.

[00:36:51] He said, nine years and nine days since John Singer was martyred. Dear Norman Bangurta, the press, the people of this nation. I am writing you to let you know the truth and the position in which we stand. First of all, I do not recognize you, Mr. Bangurta, as having any authority or jurisdiction over me or my family whatsoever. You hold a position in a government that I no longer recognize as being upheld by God. Neither do I pay any allegiance to this wicked institution of man.

[00:37:20] In the beginning, this nation had its foundations on God and truth. But through the years, the people of this country in high positions have compromised liberty and freedom for tyranny and oppression. The long train of abuses that the masses have suffered under in this country can no longer be overlooked by a true lover of liberty.

[00:37:39] The laws and courts of this country have become so degraded and ungodly that the atrocities and abominations of Hitler and his regime look infinitesimal in comparison. What is that? What is that? Is it Godwin's law? It's like how long it takes somebody to evoke Hitler in a conversation online? No, that's right. I feel like this family is like Godwin-lawing all over the place. It's like all of them compare everything.

[00:38:08] He's like, no, you're Hitler. No, you're Hitler. Anyway, back to Adam Swapp, who the abominations of Hitler and his regime look infinitesimal in comparison to what the courts and the laws of this country have done. He says, for this nation has legalized. Hannah inserting herself here. He starts talking about abortion here. But when you read his dad's letters to the editor, his dad is obsessed, obsessed with abortion.

[00:38:37] He writes to various newspapers at least monthly about this topic. So this, Adam grew up in, this was the water he grew up in. For this nation has legalized the butchery of their own unborn offspring. The most hideous murderers in this country are not the ones behind bars. Oh no. They are the respected ones of this society. The judges, lawyers and doctors, the so-called intellectuals. He didn't say that, that was me.

[00:39:02] Truly the blood of the innocents runs down the gutters of this once great country. John put forth three standards of peace according to the laws of God set forth in the doctrine of covenants. He also warned this people in the name of Jesus Christ to cease their ungodly actions towards him. This people did not heed his words. John was murdered by the church and government of this state. It was and still is a conspiracy to take life.

[00:39:30] The people in this church were embarrassed by his stand because he would not bend to their authority and recognize their ungodly actions as being divine. So those in quote high positions in this Mormon church used the government to carry out the silencing of John Singer. This they succeeded in doing by finally having ten armed men surround and shoot John in the back while he was running for home after being confronted.

[00:39:58] Later, in depositions, testimony came out that these men from alcohol, tobacco and firearms department were trained to shoot to kill. Not wound or maim. They were hired to kill John Singer. Why? Because he took his children out of public school from all the corruption and wickedness of his society. He would not compromise his God-given liberties that were once ensured. His spelling and grammar are atrocious. By the Constitution of the United States.

[00:40:27] I stand on the truth and declare my independence from this government and society. And I declare to you and to the people that we, the people on this property, are now a nation under God. And we look to him as our lawgiver and judge, for we know that he is eternal and unchangeable. And his course is one eternal round. We are independent and separate from your wicked society of ever-changing laws and dark councils that seek to enslave the minds and souls of men.

[00:40:54] I raise the banner of Israel, the flag of the kingdom of God, to the remnant of the house of Jacob, who are the descendants of the blood of Lehi, who was a descendant of Joseph, who was sold into Egypt. I say unto my Indian brothers, rally forth and become a mighty nation and gather to this valley and lay hold of the promises that God has given you through the golden plates of Mormon. I say unto the rest of the remnant of Jacob,

[00:41:19] Jacob, John Singer, will soon come forth to gather you who are scattered throughout this nation and the nations of the earth and gather you together into these valleys. Mr. Bangata, the nation of Zion, which has suffered so many abuses under the hands of your government, makes no compromise with your nation of hypocrisy, lies and deceit. Trusting all in God's hands, sincerely, Adam Swapp. P.S. Take a warning.

[00:41:49] Any man of yours which attempts to cross the boundaries of this place without our permission will be treated as an aggressive act on your part against us, and we will defend ourselves in any manner we see fit. P.P.S. No, he didn't say that, but he should have because he does a lot of P.S., is it? P.P.S. Also, if you start up your hellish... This is not made up. P.P.S. If you start up your hellish sounds again, we will also see this as an aggressive act against us,

[00:42:17] for this form of torture can be more deadly than a bullet in the side, for it penetrates my wives' and children's brains and inflicts such pain that I am sure will affect them through their lives. I know because I myself can hardly stand this ungodly sound, and if it is perpetrated against us again, I will treat this as an aggressive act against us. Maybe John Singer will rise from the dead. And we'll defend ourselves in any manner that we see fit.

[00:42:45] P.P.P.S. I must now warn you and anyone else involved, in the name of Jesus Christ and by the power of the Holy Milk Presley Priesthood, do not come against us, this loser. Do not come against us. Leave this valley immediately, for verily thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I will uphold my people with my right arm, which I will make bear against the nations who fight against my people.

[00:43:13] Verily I will bring my enemies under their feet, and I swear I will cause to tremble underfoot all those who come against them. P.P.P.S. I will preserve the remnant. I'm making this up. Okay, I gotta quit. We can't go on anymore. The end. Like, the rest will be on Patreon. This is killing me. We abbreviated this so much. Do you know how much we cut out? And it's so ridiculous. But Hannah, I have to say,

[00:43:41] Academy Award for the reading of this letter. The P.S.'s were too much. Okay, yeah. Go to Patreon. Read it for yourself. Oh, my God. What a loser. What a loser. What a loser. But now, speaking of. And a misinformed loser. The men who shot John Singer weren't ATF agents. They were state narcotics and liquor agents,

[00:44:10] county deputies, and highway patrolmen. There were 10 of them, and only one shot was fired. So, Vicky's letter, hers ran nine pages. In long time. Again, we've pulled much of what she wrote here. We're not paraphrasing anything. We're just capturing the main parts of her thinking. If you want to see the full letter, it's up on Patreon. So, I'm going to read an excerpt of what she wrote. To the office of the governor, state of Utah.

[00:44:38] To the news media and all concerned people. Dear Mr. Bangeter, I know that Adam Swapp is writing you, as I am, in response to your letter addressed to us. But I will not read the contents of his letter. Neither will he read the contents of my letter until we have finished our individual letters to you. We have not collaborated upon what to say to you. We write as individuals according to the feelings of our innermost consciences, as we are not a clan, as referred to, but rather deep-feeling individuals,

[00:45:08] who do revere and honor the great patriotic spirit and the great sacrifices brought forth by our illustrious forefathers of the great republic, that was born of them through great labor pains. John found out over the following years, through study and experience, that things were not quite as claimed to be. He saw that there was discrepancy and hypocrisy in government and church.

[00:45:32] He witnessed the balance of power being shifted more and more to heads of government and leaders of church and less and less to the people. He was frustrated of the fact that a lot of American people were seemingly satisfied to follow government and church leaders without question, as he had always felt strongly to know for himself what was true. That was the beginning of his real troubles and mine, for I was of the same mind that I had to know for myself also.

[00:46:01] When John and I had so much trouble for trying to follow the admonitions of God during these times, we sent out three standards of peace, suing for freedom to pursue our religious beliefs that were most sincere and sacred, refer to the Doctrine and Covenants section 98. We were ignored in these most sincere requests and we were prosecuted for child neglect, which charges couldn't have been further from the truth. Our children were the apples of our eye.

[00:46:30] They were our heritage of the Lord. And I have never seen a more loving and caring father than was my husband, John Singer. History shows the rest of the story. My daughter, Charlotte, saw her father gunned down while he was running home. I was denied the rights to a trial because the powers that be, quote, did not want the truth known. Golly. The powers that be have many long tentacles. This is not a statement of paranoia, but fact.

[00:46:59] My son-in-law, Adam Swapp, is witness to the grievances perpetrated against this family. He is not trying to be John as accused by the ignorant, but is likewise a man studied and concerned in the cause of truth, liberty, and freedom, and has this same flame burning within his bosom that our great forefathers had. Also, my dear husband, John Singer. If that's being a clan, then let it be so. By the way, I am not married to Adam Swapp.

[00:47:28] I am John Singer's faithful wife. Joseph Smith, whom we revere and know to be a prophet of God, was persecuted and martyred because he would not compromise the truths of heaven. We will not compromise the truths of heaven. In the Doctrine and Covenants section 101, talks of the widow who sued for justice. It says, quote, This will liken the children of Zion. Let them importune at the feet of the judge.

[00:47:56] And if he heed them not, let them importune at the feet of the governor. And if the governor heed them not, let them importune at the feet of the president. And if the president heed them not, then will the Lord arise and come forth out of his hiding place. And in his fury and in his fierce anger, in his time, will cut off those wicked, unfaithful, and unjust stewards and appoint them their portion among hypocrites and unbelievers. End quote.

[00:48:26] And then she puts in parentheses, D&C 101, verses 85 through 90. She continues, This is where we stand now. We have fulfilled all these things and have given all into God's hands. We have fulfilled all the requirements that have to be in bringing forth standards of peace, both vocally and written, but to no avail. Now the Lord will fight our battles for us. We will not compromise our stand.

[00:48:55] The matter of the bombing of the church was of God making bare his arm through his servant, Adam Swaugh. And now, according to the words of a prophet, in parentheses, Bishop Coyle, Church, state, and nation will be brought up like a stand-in, like a wild coat to a snubbin post. We will not give ourselves into the hands of the authorities. They will not take our children, for they are our heritage of the Lord, and they are children of Zion,

[00:49:25] the covenant children of the Lord with a promise, and the world can't give them anything better than what the Lord has promised. This woman, good Lord. We fly the banner of the kingdom of God from our rooftop. It is the ensign flag that was flown by the saints when they first entered the valley, still living by the precepts restored through the prophet Joseph Smith. It is our standard. We cannot give ourselves into the hands of the state officials.

[00:49:55] We have given our lives to God, and He will decide the outcome, and it will be a victorious one, for we trust in Him, respectfully and most sincerely. Vicki Singer. Now, Kraut told officials it was his greatest disappointment in trying to bring the matter to a peaceful settlement. No doubt. The public safety commissioner said, quote,

[00:50:22] they didn't contain what we had hoped for when he was talking about the letters. He said they were, quote, couched in a lot of religious documents. No kidding. End quote. After reading them, the officials were convinced that a peaceful solution was impossible. They are just determined to have, there has to be a catalyst, right? Like, they've bombed a church, and they're like, now what?

[00:50:58] The new plan was to get Adam by himself. The police figured that once they had him, everybody else would come out. Twice already, Adam and his brother Jonathan had come out to shoot at the loudspeakers on the north side of the house, cut the wires, yell obscenities at the police, and drag the speakers inside. So the officers wired a flashbang device to the speaker, which is basically just a big distraction.

[00:51:25] It's literally a flash and a bang, and it's designed to make a bright light and startle you. And then agents could approach Adam and arrest him. This was the plan. They had canines on the scene, and one of the dog's handlers was Lieutenant Freddy House of the Utah Department of Corrections. He was 35 years old and ran the canine unit at the Utah State Prison.

[00:51:50] He was also on the corrections swap team, and he was sure that he could get Adam without anybody being killed. He had a wife, Anne, and three kids, ages eight, five, and two. Between his shifts at the Singer Farm, he had found a few early morning hours to build his son a Pinewood Derby car. He was there because state officials and the FBI had asked for him.

[00:52:15] While he was working at the standoff, he had talked to his sister Dawn Tracy and told her, quote, Dawn, this is not a religious thing. Those people have committed an act of violence, and we've done what had to be done. She told him, Fred, you be careful. You be careful. End quote. Early on Thursday, January 28th, officers turned the noise back on, and Adam came out the way that they had hoped. He shot at the loudspeaker and yelled at the police. Good. Predictable.

[00:52:44] When he started taking the speaker down, the flashbang went off. The dog was supposed to go then for Adam, but the flashbang scared it, and it too ran off. Adam was allowed to get back inside. When the FBI spokesperson, Calvin Clegg, was asked why the officers hadn't just taken him down then, he said, let's just say there were technical difficulties. There was a backup plan. Before dawn, the FBI SWAT team, with two dogs and their handlers,

[00:53:11] had slipped into an empty house on the farm about 30 yards from the goat pen. One of the dogs was Mike, an 11-month-old German shepherd that Lieutenant House had trained, and he had been familiarized with Adam Sint. Clegg said, quote, The plan was to isolate Adam SWAT, figuring that he might be the driving force of the family, as we said, and then they posted up by the goat pen because they knew that every morning, Adam and Jonathan walked together to milk the goats, each armed with a rifle.

[00:53:40] At about 8.10? That morning, they came out like they always did. What happened next depends on who's telling it, as these things often do. So Cal Clegg, the FBI spokesperson, said, Lieutenant House sent his dog after Adam, but the dog hesitated. He was only 11 months old. The brothers spotted the dog and started shooting towards the shed. Lieutenant House stepped into the doorway to urge the dog on.

[00:54:07] The 10th Circuit summary of the trial record says that three shots were fired before the dogs reached Adam and Jonathan. One of those shots struck Lieutenant House. Timothy was upstairs at a window, keeping watch with a .30 caliber carbine. He fired, and the bullet hit House in the right side between the plates of his body armor. Clegg said that Adam and Jonathan turned and fired as they backed towards the house, but it was Timothy who actually fired the shot that killed.

[00:54:36] Agents gave House first aid, and more shots came from the singer house. Two agents fired at Adam. One bullet went through his wrist into his chest and lodged in his back. The other one missed. Those were the only two bullets that officers fired at anyone in 13 days. About 15 seconds had passed between the attempt to arrest him and the shot that hit him. Officers said Adam had brought his rifle up into the firing position, and Adam always denied raising it.

[00:55:04] He went down in the snow, got back up, and ran into the house. His children saw him shot in the yard, just the same way that their mothers had seen their dad shot nine years before. A round from the house hit FBI agent Don Roberts in the chest, but his bulletproof vest deflected it, so he was not another fatality. As officers carried Lieutenant House out, his canine Mike stood guard over his handler, and when the federal agent stepped in to help, the dog bit him on the side and arm.

[00:55:32] The agent needed 12 stitches, and that is a poorly trained dog. But he said he understood, wait, maybe the dog is trained to always protect his owner. Actually, maybe that's a really well-behaved dog. Yeah, they are. They're trained to protect their handlers. That's a good behaved dog. That's a good boy. Okay, let me take that back. Mike was a good boy. 12 stitches, man. That's right down to the bone. Two armored personnel carriers rolled forward, crashing through the fence, and came under what Nielsen called extremely heavy gunfire.

[00:55:59] More than 100 rounds came from the house over the next 15 to 30 minutes. Kraut was watching it on TV. Did you watch it too, Jess? I did watch it, yeah. Were you seeing it live as it happened? Maybe not live. Yeah, I'm so old. I can't remember if it was live or after, but I remember watching it on TV with my family. Yeah. Inside the house, Adam asked his family for a blessing. Adam testified that he told his family the siege was over and that,

[00:56:27] quote, I'm going to have to surrender and get to a hospital, end quote. Then he walked out to get medical attention, waving a white towel and expecting he might be killed. He walked out to the building where the officers had been hiding and gave himself up. He sang Redeemer of Israel as he went. He said the FBI agent who gave him first aid, Richard Reibolt, was sent by God. An ambulance took him to Wasatch County Hospital in Heber City,

[00:56:55] and from there he was flown to University Hospital in Salt Lake. The FBI kept ringing the phone. Kraut had carried up to the house. Finally, Jonathan picked it up and asked how to surrender. Officers ordered them out one at a time so an agent with a scope could see whether anyone was armed. And at 910, Jonathan, the four other adults, and nine children came out in two groups with their hands over their heads.

[00:57:23] A Utah Army National Guard helicopter flew Fred House to the University of Utah Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead. Outside the command center, a reporter turned to Baudrero. He turned, threw up his hands, and the reporter saw his face was wet with tears. He didn't brief them again. Kraut said, quote, I feel like I'm almost a failure.

[00:57:48] I feel just as bad for that officer and his wife and children as I do for Vicki Singer and her family. Agents searched the house and the farm. There was enough food for the family to hold out for a year or so, they thought. Agents found 13 rifles, several handguns, a sawed-off shotgun, and cases of ammunition, along with 22 sticks of dynamite in a cardboard box in a car parked outside.

[00:58:17] The family had a working radio and a television hooked up to a battery. Clegg said, quote, they knew what was happening. They could have communicated at any time, end quote. Fishing line was strung all around the house with fish hooks hanging at eye level, and trip wires were set to warn the family when someone crossed the perimeter. Adam told officers the blood had been shed, so John Singer's death was atoned for. Christ.

[00:58:47] At his trial in December, asked whether a lawman's blood had to be shed to atone for John. Adam answered, quote, you're completely off. No, it was not. Believe it or not, it was not. End quote. On the stand, the prosecutor asked Adam, quote, was it your right to bomb a church and then be left alone by law enforcement authorities? Is that your God-given right? Adam answered, was it your right to shoot John Singer in the back?

[00:59:17] He testified that he believed the bombing would lead to an armed confrontation and that he never anticipated the response it got. Well, it was peaceful, relatively. Did he want more? Bombs are always peaceful. He goes, he didn't anticipate the response he got. Like, the response you got was really mild compared to what could have been a waking situation. It could have been a Ruby Ridge situation. And it wasn't. Nope.

[00:59:45] That Thursday, Governor Bingeter put out a statement. He said, quote, the people of Utah have suffered a great loss today with the untimely death of Officer House. The lives of innocent children have been protected. Peace has been restored to a Utah community. And a tragic episode has been apprehended. I commend the men and women of the federal, state, and local agencies who have worked so hard to bring these events to a conclusion. End quote.

[01:00:13] The church put out a statement, too. They said, quote, we note with grief and sadness the events at Marion, Utah, which culminated today in human tragedy. We deeply regret the death of Lieutenant Fred House, who lost his life while serving as a law enforcement officer. We extend our sympathy to members of his family and express our condolences and appreciation to them and to the local, state, and federal officers who placed their lives at risk

[01:00:41] in the performance of their sworn duty. The event that led to the present tragedy was the unlawful and costly bombing of a house of worship of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the resultant terrorizing of the people of the community. We deplore the violence which so often marks the conduct of those who advocate and practice plural marriage and which has so often resulted in tragedy and sorrow to those affected.

[01:01:08] In the present circumstances, we reaffirm our declaration that the Church is unalterably opposed to the advocacy and practice of plural marriage. End quote. Because the Church wants to cover its own ass, but of course doesn't reference at all the continued reference to Doctrine and Covenants, a tome held sacred by members of the Church. Well, and also, can we just unpack this, which we can't in this episode, we don't have time,

[01:01:37] but we'll have to come back to it. The idea, it says in there, which has so often resulted in tragedy and sorrow. We deplore the violence which so often marks the conduct of those who advocate and practice plural marriage. Who's that then? Who's that then, Mormons? Right. You talking about yourself? You talking about yourself? Yep. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Two federal agents drove Timothy to Salt Lake City.

[01:02:04] He'd been read his rights and signed a waiver, and partway through, he said he didn't feel like talking about the bombing anymore. Then one of the agents said the siege had been hard on him, and he wanted to get back to his family in Texas. Timothy was surprised some of the agents had come from out of state, and he said it had been a long ordeal for him and his family, too. He agreed to tell them the background. He said the church was blown up because nobody was listening or cared about his father's

[01:02:32] death, and he believed it was a revelation from the Lord. He said they'd known how many officers were around the house because they'd seen it on TV. He said he didn't surrender because that would have meant he didn't believe in the Lord. He said he'd fired 10 shots from the house of the dogs and didn't know if he'd hit them, and he didn't need to be a marksman because the Lord guided him. At the marshal's office, they reminded him of his rights, and he gave a detailed confession on tape.

[01:03:02] That afternoon, the five adults were arraigned in federal court in Salt Lake City. Vicky came in handcuffed and shackled, crying. She pleaded not guilty to U.S. Magistrate Ronald Boyce. Outside the courthouse, she said that her children, quote, are all being taken away from us, end quote, asked if the children had been hurt. Her response was yes, very much so. And it's like, I agree. Again, on that we agree, Vicky Singer, but probably not for the same reasons. Right.

[01:03:32] And not by the same perpetrator. Exactly. It's like, no, I have no doubt that your children have been very much psychologically hurt by their upbringing. Her lawyer, Catherine Collard, said that Vicky, quote, had no idea what happened, that Adam and John went to milk the goat and she didn't know about the shooting in blood. She's still in shock, end quote. Jonathan sat stunned, staring blankly around the room. That day, prosecutors unsealed charges filed on January 23rd against Jonathan, Timothy,

[01:04:02] Heidi and Charlotte. They were accused of, quote, having received, relieved, comforted and assisted Adam Swapp and Vicky Elsinger in order to prevent and hinder their apprehension and trial, end quote. U.S. Attorney Brent Ward said the charges had been kept quiet during the siege because they might, quote, complicate negotiations. Heidi asked to her lawyer not to be separated from her baby, who was still nursing.

[01:04:28] Boyce said no because there was no secure place in Utah to hold children. Charlotte's lawyer asked that she be let out without bail to be with her small child. But all five were held without bail in the Salt Lake County Jail. The nine children had been split up that morning. Joseph, who was 17, was taken to the Salt Lake Detention Centre. Benjamin, 15, Israel, 12 and three of Heidi's kids went to a foster home in Marion.

[01:04:56] That afternoon at a closed hearing in front of juvenile judge Arthur G. Christine, all nine were placed in shelter care with Raymond and Harriet Swapp in Fairview. So they get to go and be with the people who raised the terrorists. Okay, great. The Swapps told the court they didn't belong to any fundamentalist groups and they weren't polygamists. They were just regular, degular Mormons. And that's not harmful at all. Raymond was a retired school teacher and he was still certified.

[01:05:25] And he said he'd teach the kids at home. They'd hoped the officers would take more time before forcing a confrontation. He said, but we can't do anything about it now. Life goes on and you cope and we will keep praying. Dang it. It's like our kids did nothing wrong is the standard they took forever. Still don't get it. Shirley Black lived alone and came us by then two miles down the road from the farm. That morning she heard the red and white ambulance go by her house.

[01:05:52] She said, quote, I had been really afraid for them and I've been praying for them. So when I heard the ambulance go by my house, I just knew something terrible was up. She asked the authorities to let her talk to Vicki and they wouldn't. Shirley also said this, quote, I was also hoping John would be resurrected. I still love him. End quote. She hadn't had a revelation that it would happen.

[01:06:18] She said, quote, I was hoping he would come back but had nothing spiritual confirm it. End quote. She said some people blamed her for John's death because of the custody fight over her children. Asked if she'd forgiven the men who killed John. She was quiet for a long time. She said we have to forgive. So I hope I have. It's good to know if you have or not. It's good to know your own feelings about something.

[01:06:43] But you can't be expected to do that if you're raised Mormon and you're told what you have to think and feel. You have to forgive. Now you said this is called Camus and I've been saying it wrong. Great. I think it's all kinds. It's Utah. They say everything weird. I'm going to say Camas or Camus. Either way. In the Camus-Camas Valley, people were glad it was all over and a lot of them had learned to tell reporters no comment. Almost everyone in the valley backed the police.

[01:07:10] That Thursday morning, when word got around that something was happening at the farm, some people had kept their kids home from school, afraid that Adam would take revenge for the old fight with the South Summit School District. And imagine if this had happened now what you would be thinking and feeling. It's like this is. Yeah. One of the local papers talked to residents just getting there, the general vibe and the feeling of what was going on.

[01:07:35] And this one guy said, a lot of people think about the situation is because we outcast him. We didn't. The community didn't drive them out. And then they literally wrote EM fed them in the same article. They quoted the church custodian, Max Larson, who lived across the highway from the bombed building. Again, Marion is like 90% Mormon. So he says, quote, Marion, there's good people here. They'll pull back together. I don't think people will hold it against the kids. They were manipulated in all this.

[01:08:04] They'll be welcome wherever they go. Freddie House's full name was Fred Floyd House. He commanded the prison six-man canine unit, and he'd just won a gold medal at a canine competition in Alabama. He trained his dogs on his own time. For eight years, he taught karate to kids at the Boys and Girls Clubs of Utah County, and he was a fourth-degree black belt. His captain, Ken Halterman, said this, quote, you never saw Fred work an eight-hour day.

[01:08:33] No matter what the situation was, if it looked like there was going to be any kind of trouble or action, Fred insisted on being first. Fred House's funeral was on Monday, February 1st. What would have been, or what was, I guess, his 36th birthday, at the Windsor State Center in Orem. Nearly 2,000 people came. Hundreds of them were police officers from Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Alabama, and Calgary. Every badge with a black band across it.

[01:09:01] The service ran nearly two hours. His sister Dawn gave the eulogy. She said, our well-trained, swaggering police officer brother, even though he was our protector, wasn't afraid to risk, to feel, and to love. She told his son Seth, your father took his strong mind and body and used his strength to help the weak. And to Anne and his daughters, she said, quote, he knew he spent too much time away from you, end quote.

[01:09:28] Lieutenant House's bishop, Wayne Watson, said, quote, Fred was a protector of liberty, of freedom, and of peace. But behind this was a conviction of self, family, friends, and fellow workers. He took time for the important things in his life, regardless of how busy he was. End quote. Bishop Watson reminded the congregation that House's own father had died while trying to save someone from drowning. Several speakers quoted John 15, 13. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

[01:09:58] And Elder Vaughan J. Featherstone, of the Seventy, spoke and gave Anne House a letter from the First Presidency. At the Orem City ceremony, Mike, the 11-month-old canine, was waiting at the grave with a lieutenant's badge on his collar, crossed with a black band. Good boy, Mike. A bagpiper played Amazing Grace, and the honour guard carried the flag-draped coffin to Anne. House's karate teacher, Tatsu Osahima, was the only person to speak at the graveside.

[01:10:28] He bowed to the crowd and spoke to his student. Fred, you reached the level all samurais hoped to reach. I'm proud of you. I love you. Thank you. Goodbye. If you value the time we put into reading these records and keeping the people in claims straight, follow or subscribe wherever you listen or watch. If you want to support Post-Mormon Postmortem, we have Venmo and other support links in the show notes. We appreciate the help that lets us keep doing this work.

[01:10:58] Heidi and Charlotte were arrested with everybody else and taken back and forth between jail and court in chains. After 12 days, federal prosecutors decided they hadn't had any active part of the bombing and let them go home. Vicki, Adam, Timothy, and Jonathan stayed in the Salt Lake County Jail. On February 3rd, Kraut met with the U.S. Attorney, Brent Ward, and the next day he spoke to the grand jury for more than an hour.

[01:11:24] Vicki's 15-year-old son, Benjamin, was called in front of the grand jury too, and he refused to testify against his mother. He said there was a parent-child privilege. They locked him up. The 10th Circuit said he had to testify, and the Supreme Court let that stand. Benjamin never testified against any of his family. Adam's lawyers asked U.S. Magistrate Ronald Boyce to let him out before the trial. The defense argued that it's not society that should be protected from Adam.

[01:11:53] I think it's Adam that should be protected from society. His lawyer said he was, quote, That's what the defense said. Adam needs to be protected from society. Oh, poor Adam. Yeah, please protect us all. Right. And Adam's lawyer said that he was, quote, Following the pattern followed by early Mormon leaders, end quote. Which... Interesting. Wow. Wow.

[01:12:18] One of his lawyers, Bill Morrison, said Adam saw himself the way early Mormons had and that he'd been frustrated over the killing of John Singer. Boyce responded, quote, He was killed because he pointed a gun at a law enforcement officer, end quote. Morrison said Adam had been upset by the water rights fight, the delinquent tax notice sent to the House, and the dismissal of Bigty's more than $100 million wrongful death lawsuit. Boyce countered with, quote,

[01:12:47] It was thrown out because there wasn't enough evidence to sustain it. It was upheld by the 10th Circuit and the Supreme Court refused to grant a hearing, end quote. Adam's lawyer, John Buker, said Adam had been delirious when he said it and that the warnings in his letters, quote, Do not threaten violence toward any man by Mr. Swapp, end quote. No, not by Mr. Swapp, by God. He said God's going to do the violence. Yeah, the attorney went on, quote,

[01:13:15] He's talking about what may happen and not who's going to do it. He clearly has a vision of grandeur, end quote. Lambert answered, Yeah, he thinks he's a law unto himself. Oh, yeah. So Judge Boyce ruled that Adam was a danger to the community and ordered him held until trial. Adam walked out of court carrying a sheet of paper he'd written on. It said, quote, USA versus the Kingdom of God. Okay, so that would be USA 1, Kingdom of God 0.

[01:13:45] Zero. A grand jury had indicted Adam, Jonathan, Vicki and Timothy on charges covering the bombing, attempted murder, assault and weapons violations. Vicki had asked the court to quash the grand jury subpoenas served on her children, claiming a parent-child privilege like the one that protects spouses from being forced to testify against each other. U.S. District Judge J. Thomas Green ruled on it under seal. About eight weeks after the siege, the farm was quiet again.

[01:14:13] The cabin was full of little kids laughing. Charlotte was working day and night at her beading loom, making cuff decorations for a new buckskin jacket for Adam. His birthday was April 6th, the day his trial started, which is also Christ's birthday by Mormon reckonings. And she was trying to get it finished in time. So he could wear his beaded buckskin jacket to trail so he would not look like a lunatic. Asked what the symbols meant, she said, you'd just have to know Adam.

[01:14:43] The pleasure's all yours. The four adults were finally tried on an eight-count amended indictment. Adam and Vicki were charged with the bombing, with using a bomb in a crime of violence, and with possessing an unregistered bomb. All four were charged with trying to kill FBI agents, with assaulting and resisting them, and with using guns to do it. Vicki was also charged with having an unregistered sawed-off shotgun.

[01:15:09] Counted across the four defendants, the eight counts add up to 23 charges. Before trial, they spent several weeks at a federal prison in San Diego for psychiatric evaluations. The only defense they had left was insanity, and they refused it. Before trial, Jonathan's lawyers raised whether he was competent to stand trial, and Jonathan fought them on it. A psychiatrist, Dr. Jess Grosbeck, and we are not just going to let Dr. Grosbeck slide by like that,

[01:15:38] not without mentioning the episode that we have on him. Go check it out. Dr. Grosbeck examined him and testified that he wasn't competent to stand trial, and why am I not surprised to hear Jess Grosbeck say that? Because according to him, anybody with Mormon beliefs should not be held to account for their crimes. Jonathan told the court he understood exactly what was going on and what could happen to him, that the doctor had no right to call him mentally ill because of his religion, that a man who has faith and believes in God isn't crazy,

[01:16:08] and that the doctor was taking his religion and twisting it into a mental illness. The judge found him competent. Timothy's lawyers tried to keep out his confession. He had testified that he had been in a wheelchair since he was 17 when a tree fell on him, as Jess said, that he had been taken out of public school as a little boy and taught at home by his parents, and that he hadn't understood his rights. I'm just a baby in a wheelchair. I'm just a baby.

[01:16:36] The psychologist for the defense said that Timothy was very susceptible to coercion. A psychologist for the government said Timothy told her he'd read and understood the form that he signed. Just fine. The judge let the confession in. So the trial started on April 6th. The prosecution called federal agent after federal agent and Kraut testified on April 14th. Adam wore his beaded buckskin jacket to court on every single day. And he didn't look insane at all?

[01:17:06] Not at all. The jury heard about the 23 weapons and the 8,304 rounds of ammunition that were seized from the house and the property. A ballistics expert testified about three rifle shots fired from near where Jonathan had been seen kneeling and shouldering his gun, and about seven bullets fired from the rifle Timothy admitted using that morning, one of them the bullet that hit Fred House.

[01:17:32] Near the end of the trial, the judge shut down any more talk about House. He said, quote, Fred House is simply not part of this indictment. The fact that Fred House died is simply irrelevant. We're through talking about Lieutenant House in this courtroom, end quote. Adam was the only defendant who testified. Out of the jury's hearing, his lawyer asked if he understood the possible consequences. Adam said, quote,

[01:17:59] I understand more than you give me credit for at this time. God damn. Is that not just such a Mormon priest? It's like, if you could just see, if you could just see behind the veil like I can. How smart I am. Yeah, it's like, oh, please, bitch. I think you don't even understand what I understand. Okay. I am all seen. Exactly. I have revelations. Just imagine. I understand more than you give me credit for. Okay. Mm-hmm. The judge asked whether he'd talked it over with the people close to him.

[01:18:30] So even the judge is like, dude, you don't know what you're talking about. Adam said, yes, I have discussed it with each one of the other defendants in great length. Their attorneys are quite opposed to it. But Timothy, Jonathan, and Vicki are all 100%. Why am I not surprised that none of them took the advice of their attorneys who have, like, gone to law school? No surprise. Who know the law? No surprise. Okay. Well, but they don't, those attorneys don't have the word on their side. Oh, sorry, they don't know the scripture and they haven't had revelation. Mm-hmm. Right. Okay, go ahead.

[01:19:00] On the stand, Adam admitted the bombing and said he hadn't tried to hurt anyone with it. He said they'd listened to the police mobilize on a Bearcat scanner and they'd had no thought of surrendering because the officers had proven to be their known enemies. He said the lights and speakers tortured them, that he never aimed at or tried to shoot any officer, even though he'd had plenty of chances, and that he knew the siege was over once he'd been shot.

[01:19:28] On cross-examined, he refused again and again to answer the prosecutor. Asked who went with him to bomb the church, he said the truth was within him, but it wasn't for prosecutors' ears. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. He said the bombing was just the beginning of the destruction of the church, state, and nation, and that God had told him to stand and fight like a man.

[01:19:52] About their stand, Adam said, quote, it's something that burns within all four of us, end quote. He said he'd had about 20 guns in Vicki's house, that they were all his, and that he'd sawed off the shotguns himself. He said he'd fired a lot of shots from the house, but never at the speakers when officers were near them, and that nobody ever shot at him or his family when they walked around the property.

[01:20:18] He said he'd heard the news reports that officers wanted a peaceful end, and he couldn't believe it. When the prosecutor asked whether Jonathan or Timothy had done certain things, Adam said, quote, I stand mute. If you want to know, ask him. He was a delightful witness.

[01:20:44] On May 9th, 1988, the jury convicted the four of them on 20 of the 23 charges. Adam, Jonathan, and Timothy were each convicted of second-degree attempted murder of the FBI agents. Vicki was acquitted of that charge and of having the sword-off shotgun. After the verdict, Adam wrote a Declaration of Independence, and Vicki and the others signed it.

[01:21:08] Quote, we have suffered the conspiracies of wicked men in both church and this American government. We have suffered public humiliation and the defamation of our character. By hounding, persecuting, and depriving us of our liberties, they have tried to wipe us out all in the name of the U.S. government. Let it be known to all nations that we are a nation under God. That we are independent, separate, and free.

[01:21:37] And there are people right now, right now, right now, who think this. Who get that way. Yep. By June, Charlotte was 20 and Heidi was 23. They were raising their six kids and looking after their brothers, Joseph, Benjamin, and Israel. The night before Benjamin was let out on May 25th, Charlotte dreamed he'd come home to help with the farm work. The next morning, she was cleaning when Israel yelled, Ben's here, Ben's here.

[01:22:05] Benjamin was trying to get his driver's license so he could take his sisters to the store because nobody at the farm could legally drive. They lived on a little more than $300 a month in Social Security and envelopes of cash that came in the mail. When asked about the situation, Heidi said, we take things one day at a time. If you plan ahead, then God has no way to influence the outcome. What? We need to make a book of their sayings that they live by. Right.

[01:22:34] Like their thinking is so interesting. Okay, if you plan ahead. He's helpless. Oh, so helpless. You can't plan. Yeah. You can't plan ahead. In jail, Timothy was really having a hard time. His sister, Charlotte, said, quote, jail makes him sick. He would like to get married and worries about the time he is away in jail. That's his worry. Not having his liberty taken away from him. The clock sticking. Yeah.

[01:23:03] And he's got to get started on all those plural wives, right? Exactly. On June 22nd, Adam wrote a nine-page letter from jail. Because he loves these letters. He said, For these and other reasons, the Lord did command me to blow up the Mormon church building. I did not do what I did out of hatred or malice towards these people. Me and my family pray for them continually. We have only wanted to be left alone.

[01:23:30] My heart holds no hatred or revenge against these people. God can testify to this. I only want to be able to stand upon righteous principles without compromising before my God, so that I know when I leave this mortal existence, I fought valiantly for truth, freedom, liberty, and the eternal rights of man. It's so interesting how you just say the fucking opposite, right? You act hatefully and then you go, I've got no hatred. You, like, it's just wild.

[01:23:59] More letters from jail. On August 9th, Vicky wrote, All in all, I can truthfully say that I know that the truth has been stood upon and that these painful experiences that we have gone through are not in vain and that no matter how bad things may look to others, they will one day soon be able to understand. Just like Noah's Ark is what she's thinking. You may laugh at us now, but we'll show you. On September 2nd, 1988, Judge Bruce Jenkins' sentence,

[01:24:27] Adam to 15 years, Jonathan to 10, Timothy to 10, and Vicky to 5. Two years later, in September 1990, the 10th Circuit ruled that a federal law required five or more years to run consecutively for using explosives in a violent crime. That made Adam's federal sentence 20 years. In December 1988, Adam, Jonathan, and Timothy went on trial again in Colville, this time for the death of Fred House.

[01:24:57] They were charged with second-degree murder. On the stand, all three said that they had been shooting over the officers' heads and that they had been aiming at the dogs. The prosecutors said that Adam was the ringleader and set everything in motion. They said Jonathan stood with Adam and fired his gun many times, including during the shootout. Adam's lawyers said that they couldn't have known the police would try to arrest him and that he never told anyone to shoot. The trial ran for three weeks.

[01:25:26] The jury had eight people on it, four from Park City, two from Oakley, one from Marion, and one from Colville. They deliberated for almost 26 hours. On December 22nd, they found Adam and Timothy guilty of manslaughter and Jonathan guilty of negligent homicide. Adam hugged two of his little boys. Who cares? Now, Jonathan, at the sentence, hugged Anne Eaton Swap, who he had married the month before,

[01:25:56] in a ceremony at Summit County Jail. So, lucky her. Fred House's widow, Anne, didn't come for the verdict. She sent a statement that said, quote, these people can't be let off easily. End quote. Adam's parents left without saying anything. Jonathan's lawyer, Earl Spafford, called the verdict almost an acquittal, which, yeah, he's not wrong. Timothy's lawyer, Fred Methos, who had asked the jury for negligent homicide, called it more than fair.

[01:26:25] He said, quote, Tim is pleased he's not looking at a life sentence. And again, no kidding. But he killed someone. And they got negligent homicide? At sentencing on January 19th, 1989, the prosecutor, Creighton Horton, said Adam was, quote, more than any other person really responsible for the death of Officer House. He recognized the risks and he chose to ignore them. He is the one who chose to arm himself and the other residents

[01:26:53] with more than 20 weapons because of his fanatical beliefs. End quote. Adam Sawyer, John Buecher, argued the family was being tried twice for the same 13 days. He said, quote, there was no separate distinct act against the federal officers and Fred House. That is so wild. It's like... You bombed it. There was a church bombing. Yeah, the same 13 days. And also they were tried before for attempted murder on the FBI agents and now they're tried for actual murder on Fred House. Yeah.

[01:27:22] Adam claimed that his fate was in God's hands and called the shooting an accident. He said, quote, blood was not our intent. He told the judge, yesterday was 10 years since my father-in-law was shot in the back. The people who shot him have never been brought to justice. I need to call these people to repentance as I've been so told by God. Timothy said he hadn't been shooting at anyone and hadn't seen anyone. He said, quote, I am not a killer.

[01:27:52] I'm not a murderer. But he's the literal one who did the killing. But he is the one that killed the... Of all of them. Okay. Lieutenant House. Okay, just making sense. Just checking. Spied the fatal shot. Okay. So that was Timothy, the one who said I'm not. That would be Timothy. These people live in a world of their own making. Yeah. So Jonathan claimed that the three of them were innocent and they would stay in prison only as long as God wanted. I hope it was hell for them.

[01:28:20] On January 26th, Judge Michael Murphy sentenced Adam and Timothy to one to 15 years each to start after their federal time and recommended no more than 30 years taller. Jonathan got 12 months. Vicky was convicted of no state crime. She got five years in federal prison and five years of probation. Adam went to federal prison in Indiana and later in Oregon. In February 1992, KUTV ran an interview with Adam from prison.

[01:28:49] He said the bombing was intentional. It, quote, was not a vengeful act in my eyes. End quote. He said, Lieutenant House was in the wrong place at the wrong time. His death was a clear accident as far as we're concerned. End quote. He also said that God had a hand in what had happened. He couldn't deny that. And he wasn't going to apologize for what the Lord had asked him to do. And if you think you've got God on your side, you can just do whatever you want with impunity. Apparently. He said, quote,

[01:29:19] I was willing to give my life. I'm also willing to give my time in prison. End quote. He was angry that Utah had made a hero out of Lieutenant House. But, quote, my father-in-law was blown away. Premeditated, cold-blooded murder. And yet not one person gives a damn about what happened to him. I would say the last chapter has not been written. End quote. This fuck is out now. By then, Vicki had been released and was back on the farm with Joseph, Benjamin, and Israel.

[01:29:46] Benjamin was later arrested for having a homemade bomb. Timothy finished his federal sentence and almost, 10 years on the state manslaughter conviction and was paroled in 2006. Adam finished his federal time after 17 years and started his state sentence in 2006 at a prison in Arizona. They'd put him there because a lot of the corrections officers from the siege still worked at the Utah State Prison. On March 9th, 2007,

[01:30:13] a member of the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole traveled down for his first hearing. Adam was 45. He called himself a fundamentalist and said he'd been born again. He said, I was wrong what I did. I'm sorry for it. If I could take it back, I would. He added, I want to be like Jesus Christ. And then right away said, I don't mean I want to be Christ. He's my example. Good clarification. Right.

[01:30:41] Adam said what pushed him over the edge was when the Summit County Sheriff gave the family John's bloodstained clothes and the autopsy pictures. He said that Vicky was inconsolable. And he added, her tears and her feelings of pain never seemed to lessen over those nine years. End quote. Well, that's probably true because she fixated on it. On it. And didn't heal from it and became consumed by it.

[01:31:09] I have no doubt that she obsessed over it for nine years. Adam continued by saying, quote, I felt like I was doing what I was supposed to do because of Vicky and her family, even if it wasn't right. I would never touch another gun again, even if I wasn't a felon. He said. He said that to the parole board. Okay. Yeah. He sure has got it down for the parole board. Yeah. He told them that if he got out, he'd have nothing to do with Vicky and would never go back to the farm.

[01:31:39] He told the board that Heidi had left him and remarried. He said, I look at that and I think, how did this happen? And if he ever saw someone in a situation like his, he'd want to help them see that what they were doing was wrong. Board member Clark Harms said Adam had spent 20 years in prison justifying himself and had found God right in time for the parole hearing. He said, quote,

[01:32:13] Now, this is how sorry Adam was. His inability to fake it for more than five minutes. Quote, if they'd have just said they were sorry, it would have been like throwing cold water on a fire. End quote. So this is, after 20 years, this is what he comes to. They should have said they were sorry. Harms said Adam might not have fired the shot, but he led his family into the whole situation. Quote, the one who is ultimately responsible, just like the judge had said,

[01:32:42] for Fred House's death is you. End quote. Charlie Burnett was at the parole speaking on behalf of Anne House. Quote, I'm amazed even now. The degree of sorrow has not dissipated through all of the years. He said they didn't want him out anytime soon. And the board denied parole, thank God, and set a rehearing for September 2012. In Camas, the mayor, Lou Marchant, had been on the state high council in 1988, and was one of the first people inside the church after the bomb. He said, quote,

[01:33:11] this was a church facility that a lot of us attended. I saw the damage that morning, and had to walk in that building, and see the damage, and it almost overwhelms you. We all need to forgive and forget, but that was a pretty tragic thing that happened to people in this valley, and I know it's pretty difficult for some people to let it go. At his next hearing, in September 2012, Adam cried and apologized to everyone from the House family to the town of Marion.

[01:33:40] He said that since his prior parole hearing, he had been coming up with what he could possibly say. No, he said that none of it would have happened if it weren't for him. So he at least got that bit right. He said that back then, he'd have developed very, very strong religious beliefs, and I can't imagine with his parents where they came from. And he thought that John Singer was somehow guiding him. Anne House had written the parole board a letter saying, by this time, Adam has served his time and recommended that he should be let out.

[01:34:09] Board member Jesse Gallagos said it was the most compelling thing he heard at that meeting. In April 2013, the board granted parole. It listed the reasons to keep him, the seriousness of his crime, his role as the leader, the number of victims, and the reasons they had to parole him. That he'd accepted responsibility, he'd shown greater remorse, he had never been locked up before, and he had family waiting for him. The parole board member that I just referenced, Jesse Gallagos,

[01:34:37] told him to keep getting mental health treatment. He said, Adam, whatever happens in your life, you do not want to start up with those type of deep held and radical thoughts, because Adam, I'm here to tell you, if that starts again, you will be remembered as the guy from 1988. On July 9th, 2013, at 6.50 a.m., Adam walked out of the Sanpeak County Jail in Manti. He'd been locked up for 25 and a half years. His family picked him up and took him home to Fairview,

[01:35:06] where there was a welcome banner on the house. His son, John, had been a year and a half old when Adam went to prison, the same age John's son, William, was that morning. He said, quote, I think he's the greatest man in the world. Anne House put out a statement. It read, I believe that in the past 25 and a half years, Adam Swapp has had time to ponder his actions and beliefs. He indicates that he feels great remorse for the events that led to my husband's shooting.

[01:35:33] This has helped me come to a place of forgiveness and peace with his release. There has been much suffering by both of our families in the past years. Adam deserves a chance to reverse the damage done by doing good and now being an asset to his family. And whether or not that came to be, we have not looked into. But hey, maybe someone out there listening knows what happened after Adam Swapp left jail. Did he become a community asset?

[01:36:01] Every source for this episode is linked in the show notes on Patreon. And if you can leave us a review and helps new listeners find the show. We sure appreciate you being here and we appreciate you listening. We also appreciate the help of folks that make this podcast possible. Hannah W., Dr. Dave, and Nick. They all help support the show in their own way. We'll be back with more post-Mormon post-mortem tomorrow. We will. And as always, Hannah, before we go,

[01:36:30] I've got to sign off by saying, I'm sorry for what I said when I was Mormon. Jessica, I'm sorry for what I said when I was Mormon too. Now vengeance will be mine, saith the Lord.